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Interview with Dr Hu Jun

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10 mins read

Xiaoming Cheng

The last day of 2022 happened to fall on a weekend. At noon Eastern time in Boston, I had a conversation over video chat with Dr. Hu Jun in California. Given the three-hour time difference, I thanked her for agreeing to do this interview so early on a weekend morning. The focus of this interview was a documentary Dr. Hu and her team were in the process of filming.

Dr. Hu and I are both alumni of Shanghai University of TCM. After completing her undergraduate degree at the Yunnan University of Chinese Medicine, she earned her doctoral degree at Shanghai University of TCM. Coincidentally, her advisor was Mr. Li Ding, who is a leading figure in the acupuncture community both locally in Shanghai and nationally throughout China. Li happened to have been one of my instructors when I was studying there. With this connection between us, my interview topics became more varied. Many people in the American TCM industry are familiar with New England Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine.

Dr. Hu. They know that she is glad to contribute to good causes and the pursuit of TCM ideals, and she is always striving to promote TCM culture and expand its influence. As a TCM practitioner, when she is not practicing in her clinic, she serves as the current president of the California Society of Chinese Medicine, as well as vice president of the World Federation of Acupuncture Moxibustion So cities, and president of the American Association of Chinese Medicine and Acupuncture (AACMA). Although she wears many hats, everything she does is marked by hard work and dedication.

When asked why she decided to film the documentary The History of Acupuncture in the United States, Dr. Hu was eager to share her story. Ever since July of 1971, when the New York Times columnist and reporter James Reston published an article on his acupuncture experience in Beijing, which was followed by President Nixon’s visit to China in 1972, Americans’ interest in acupuncture has only continued to grow. In April of 2022, the mainstream American magazine TIME published an article titled “Why Acupuncture is Going Mainstream in Medicine” full of facts that show acupuncture is gradually being accepted by conventional medicine while also exerting an extraordinary influence. The fact that, in only 50 years, a medical system from abroad could develop so quickly is both encouraging and inspiring to the acupuncture community.

By contrast, when acupuncture first entered the US along with Chinese laborers in 1846 around the time of the Gold Rush, it was regarded as a medical practice that required a Western medical license to perform because it involved needles piercing the skin and entering the body. Without such a license, this practice was illegal, so it could only be performed underground in semi-secrecy. Even when interest in acupuncture surged in 1972, contemporary laws caused many people to be jailed for practicing acupuncture. In response, TCM and acupuncture practitioners from all over the US embarked on an arduous struggle for the right to practice legally, from which emerged countless tales of joy and sorrow. Gathering, organizing, and presenting this history is extremely important for purposes of historical research as well as remembering our predecessors and educating future generations. In 2020, AACMA signed a contract with One in a Row Films to start filming a documentary on the early history of acupuncture legislation in California. This documentary is the first self-funded English film outside of China to focus on TCM history. After two years, it is already in the post-production stage.

Dr. Hu became solemn as she recounted the poignant history of Chinese people in the US and especially in the development of the American West. She said that many early immigrants were slaves who led extremely difficult lives. At the time, Chinese people were regarded as “outcasts” because of their cultural differences, to the point that a “Chinese Exclusion Act” was signed into law in 1882. In all of American history, no other ethnic group has ever been subject to such treatment. This period in history may require us to reflect on our own cultural roots. Out of all the races in the world, why did this law only target us Chinese people? As with the emergence of this law, the exclusion of Chinese people was not driven by capitalists or the government but rather was a rejection by other ethnic groups in the US. Chinese cultural values have always included the concept of “playing it safe”. In the context of the time, as people were coming to the US from all over the world to take part in the development of the West, all the laborers would join together and organize strikes to protect their interests. However, Chinese people, who were among the most numerous ethnic groups, were not willing to participate. Squatting in the corner eating their rice, they became known as a group that would rather let the capitalists cut their wages by 10% or more than strike. This culture not only confined them to slavery but could also make life hellish for laborers from other ethnic groups. At that time, all other racial and ethnic groups thought that the Chinese were selfish; they did not take part in any political activities, and they only cared about earning and saving money. This cultural stigma made it difficult for them to assimilate into mainstream society because they did not know how people should live, what their interests were, or how to protect their rights. They did not know how to tell society what they needed. At a glance, this film documents the gradual restoration of Chinese people’s awareness of their rights through the development of acupuncture in California.

Regarding acupuncture, Dr. Hu said that prior to the advent of legislation, TCM culture and acupuncture in particular was not accepted by mainstream society outside of China. This was not an issue of scientific validity, but rather one of cultural awareness. In the early years of TCM practice, when problems occurred in the course of treatment or inadequate translations caused patients to develop misunderstandings, TCM practitioners would be dragged to court without the slightest hesitation, or they might face various administrative penalties. In order to safeguard their interests, over the last century TCM practitioners gradually realized that they needed to find a way to enact legislation and fight for the rights they deserved to protect themselves. This documentary showcases a wide variety of touching stories on the road to legislation, as well as how the process of fighting for laws to protect acupuncturists’ interests brought together the wisdom and hard work of innumerable people. This was not just dedication; more importantly, it was the spirit of the American Chinese struggle for rights. Throughout the filming process, Dr. Hu would drive over 100 kilometers every day to hear elders who had experienced these challenges pour out their stories, listening to their reflections on their transition from “minding their own business” to “strength in unity” . This conceptual change start- ed by throwing off the 2000-year-old cultural shackles deep in our hearts.

On the topic of choosing the theme for the documentary, Dr. Hu said that this film itself embodies a culture’s introspection and its own struggle for status. How can Chinese traditional culture and Western culture be blended together? In fact, in fundamental terms, while the cultures of various ethnicities, races, and countries all have their own characteristics, as a whole they should all be interconnected. They all serve to elevate humanity’s mental and spiritual life, manifesting as the emergence and sharing of knowledge and wisdom.

When talking about the filming process, Dr. Hu became somewhat emotional. To complete the filming of this documentary, despite limited funding, she still hired a famous director from the American movie industry. The reason for choosing this director was that he had prior experience filming material related to TCM culture and Chinese acupuncture.

Regarding the differences between Chinese and American culture, Dr. Hu described one incident to me: when filming segments, the director asked her to make an overview of Chinese acupuncture. Given that she had earned her graduate and doctoral degrees in China, one could say she was extremely well-versed in the history and culture of acupuncture, so she made a 90-minute speech on the topic. To her surprise, the director said he didn’t understand what she was saying, so he deleted the whole thing. Clearly, this director New England Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine was not used to our expression of Chinese culture. After three revisions, Dr. Hu finally used the most simple, systematic, and logical format possible to explain her view of acupuncture and the modern applications of acupuncture science, which just barely got the director’s approval. I could not help but smile as I listened; this description resonated with my own experience. I remembered that one of my students who was studying for his master’s degree in the US had told me a similar story. He said that when he first arrived in the US to begin his studies, there was one class in which the teacher as signed a topic for everyone to write a research report on as homework. He went to the library to look up information, gathered all the materials he could from past to present and all over the world, and wrote a few dozen pages of eloquent prose. As he handed in his work, he felt very pleased with how he had done; he thought that the teacher would definitely approve of his paper and might even praise him in front of the whole class. How satisfying that would be! But when he got his grade back, he found that the teacher had only given him a C. He was puzzled; why did this happen? A friend who was born and raised in the US and had gotten an A on the same assignment agreed to show his paper. My student was shocked to see that what his friend’s paper expressed was as simple as “I picked up a penny on the side of the road and gave it to a policeman, and the policeman said I was a good kid. ” How could a paper like this get an A? Confused, he sought out the teacher, who responded with one word: “logic” . The teacher said that his writing did not follow the general rules of how things developed, but rather was cobbled together like a patchwork. So that explained it; my student finally realized that writing papers here was just that simple, so simple that there was neither depth nor breadth.

Early TCM practitioners in the US were often faced with lawsuits due to differences in cultural awareness or misunderstandings in the course of clinical practice. Everyone knows about the movie The Gua Sha Treatment; this movie depicts the situation at that time. Cupping is yet another example. In the past, cupping was subject to widespread skepticism in mainstream American society, to the point where practitioners who performed cupping were brought to court on accusations that cupping caused physical harm. Fortunately, cupping has now been normalized as a therapeutic procedure in the US, with many American athletes, such as star swimmer Michael Phelps, swearing by the practice. At present, an increasing number of Americans are aware that cupping is a very good treatment method. It is not only used by acupuncturists, but also by physical therapists, osteopaths, tui na practitioners, and massage therapists.

When I asked Dr. Hu about the AACMA, she told me that the purpose of the AACMA is to promote the role of TCM in the American wellness and healthcare indistries. It has done a lot of specific work to facilitate TCM’s entry into the mainstream American medical field. Founded in 1973, the AACMA persistently worked to drive the legalization of TCM. Later, other TCM groups were established one after another, such as the advisory committee on acupuncture founded by the AACMA and American TCM Society. In particular, the establishment of the California Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine, which signified that graduate and doctoral students could study acupuncture in the US. Currently, the AACMA has over 500 registered members.

Returning to the topic of comparing Chinese and Western cultures, Dr. Hu said that TCM and Western medicine differ in their clinical approach to patients. TCM prioritizes a big-picture understanding of life and the body. In more specific terms, TCM treatment is more than just a therapeutic procedure; it may be better described as a form of compassion for others. This awareness is an embodiment of the entire life form and realm of existence, viewing the world and humanity as a unified whole. TCM prioritizes respect for life and understanding the life processes of the human body. It has a deference to the harmonies and relationships among humans, nature, and the universe, incorporating all kinds of connections to culture, lifestyle, health, geography, diet, and other aspects of the human life process into its system. It emphasizes the interconnectedness of the system as a whole. When this thinking is applied to the treatment process, it manifests as a culture of compassion for others. In contrast, Western medicine is a mechanistic system of point-to-point relationships among therapeutic procedures that excludes the interpersonal context. The same is true of modern medical and scientific research methods. That is to say, a research lab conducts experiments to exclude all other indeterminate factors, so all that is left is a single active factor. Interestingly, we almost never see anyone from the American medical industry suing acupuncturists, while there are hundreds of lawsuits against Western medical practitioners every year.

I asked Dr. Hu, as a member of the TCM community, how she merged her self-adopted mission with that of fellow professionals and TCM enthusiasts who shared her sense of purpose in order to collectively promote the development of the American TCM industry. She summed up her thoughts with confidence: At present, the development of TCM in the US has already moved beyond the difficult exploratory stage. The TCM community has learned how to protect itself by finding strength in unity.

With regard to promoting TCM culture, Dr. Hu mentioned her interactions with the consul at a forum held by the Consulate in California during the Chinese Dragon Boat Festival last year. Dr. Hu said that when a non-Chinese person takes an interest in Chinese culture and consults with an acupuncturist to see if they can help with his illness, from the point when he enters the acupuncture clinic up to and including the completion of the entire treatment process, he is opening himself up to the influence of Chinese culture. This is the process by which Chinese culture can be spread. The mission of the TCM community is to help more people understand how Chinese culture approaches life and health. Westerners’ individual experiences in the process of accepting Chinese culture can inspire greater understanding and awareness.

As I listened attentively, I pondered the past struggles in the development of TCM in the US and in Chinese culture that this documentary depicted. We know that this was a misunderstanding between different national cultures and the starting point to resolve misunderstandings is communication. This is precisely where the value of this documentary lies. The development of TCM in the US is a microcosm of the struggles of Chinese people in the US. We hope that this documentary inspires and encourages Chinese people to become politically active, enabling Chinese voices to be heard by more people and thereby promoting the spread of exemplary Chinese culture in the US.

採訪胡軍醫生

2022年的最後一天恰逢週末,東部時間中午我在波士頓隔着屏幕與遠在加州的胡軍老師進行交流。 3小時的時差,感謝她在這週末的早晨愉快地接受我的採訪。 這次採訪的主題是關於胡軍老師以及他們團隊正在拍攝的紀錄片。我和胡軍老師是上海中醫藥大學的校友,她在雲南中醫學院本科畢業後相繼在上海中醫藥大學取得碩士和博士學位,湊巧的是她的指導老師李鼎先生,這位上海乃至全國針灸界的領軍人物,恰好也是我當年在讀時的任課老師。有了這層關係,我的採訪話題也變得相對輕松發散。在美國中醫藥工業圈內人士很多人都瞭解胡軍老師,知道她為公益事業和中醫理想樂於奉獻,一直致力於傳播中醫文化,擴大中醫文化影響力。作為中醫師,行醫的同時她是現 任的“加州中醫學會”會長,同時還擔任“世界針灸聯合會”副會長、“美國中醫公會”會長,不同的崗位,努力和奉獻的目標都一樣。

在說起為什麼要拍攝“針灸在美國的發展史”這部紀錄片,胡軍老師娓娓道來。美國自1971年7月紐約時報著名專欄作家和記者James Reston發表了自己在北京親身經歷針灸的文章,隨後1972年尼克松總統訪華帶來針灸熱後,這熱潮就一直未停止過。2022年4月,美國主流媒體《時代週刊》又刊登《為什麼針灸正步入主流醫學?》一文,例舉不少事實證明針灸正逐漸被主流醫學認可,並發揮着奇特的影響力。短短50年歷程,作為一個外來醫學在海外得以迅速發展,確實令針灸人感到鼓舞和振奮。然而,在1846年淘金熱前後,針灸術隨着中國勞工進入美國之初,因針刺需要剌過皮膚進入身體,被認為是醫療行為必須持有西醫執照者方能作業,否則 即是違法,只能半公開半地下進行。儘管有1972年的針灸熱存在,按照當時的法律,仍有不少人因違法使用針灸而鋃鐺入獄。為此,全美中醫針灸同仁為爭取合法行醫權利而展開了艱苦的鬥爭,涌現出很多可歌可泣的感人故事。收集、整理和重現這段歷史,無論是史學研究的需要,還是對前輩的紀念和後人的教育都非常重要。美國中醫公會於2020年與ONE IN A ROW FILMS公司簽訂合約開始拍攝反对加州早期針灸立法史的紀錄片,該紀錄片是至今自籌資金拍攝的首部海外英文中醫史片,歷經2年,現已進入後期製作階段。

說起華人在美國的辛酸歷史,尤其美國西部開發史,胡軍老師顯得很沉重,她說:早期的移民很多都是奴隸,他們走過了非常艱苦的道路。當時的華人因為自己的文化不同曾被視為“另類”,以至於 1882年頒布了“排華法案”,美國歷史上迄今為止 沒有任何一個其他族群有過相似境遇。關於這一段 歷史,可能需要我們從自身文化根源進行反思,世界上這麼多的種族,為什麼就單單對我們華人施行了這個法案?正如這個法案產生的原因一樣,排華不是因為資本家或者是政府,而是被在美其他族群的文化所排斥。自古中國文化的價值觀裏有一條: 明哲保身。還原當年的場景,人們從世界各地來到美國參與西部大開發,所有勞工們團結起來為了維護自身權益而組織罷工,然而作為族群人數較多的華人卻不願意參與其中。他們蹲在牆角吃着碟飯,成為被憎恨的那群寧願被資本家減少10%以上工資也不罷工的人群。 這種文化不僅將自己淪為奴隸,而且可能會把其他族群的勞工們也帶入地獄。當時其他所有的種族都認為華人很自私,他們不參加任何政治現行,只知道賺錢存錢。這種文化的烙印讓他們無法很好地融入主流社會,不懂得人應該怎樣活着,有什麼權益,如何去爭取自己的權利,不懂告訴社會我們需要什麼。《一管窺豹》這部電影通過對加州中醫針灸的發展史記錄華人權力意識的逐漸回歸。

關於針灸,胡老師說中國的中醫文化特別是針灸文化在立法之前一直不被國外的主流社會接受,這並不是 一種科學與不科學的問題,而是一種文化認同。在早期中醫行醫過程中,當出現的一些治療問題,或者因為翻譯不到位而讓患者出現了一些誤解的時候,他們都會毫不猶豫的把中醫人推到法庭,或者是進行某些行政的處罰。為了維護自己的利益,百年來中醫人慢慢地懂得了需要搜尋一個立法的道路,爭取自己應該有的權利以保護自己。在這部紀錄片裏呈現了很多在立法道路上的各種酸甜苦辣的故事,以及爭取針灸立法權益的過程中,聚集了多少人智慧和努力。這是一種奉獻更是一種為美國華人爭取權益的精神。拍攝過程中,每天驅車百餘公里,傾聽那些歷經滄桑的老人們的傾訴,聽他們如何從“獨善其身”到“眾志成城”的感悟,這種觀念的改變是從推翻在我們心底 2000年來的文化枷鎖開始的。

談到紀錄片主題的立項時,胡軍老師說:這部電影的本身體現的是對文化的反思並為自身爭取文化的地位。如何讓中國的傳統文化和西方的文化融合在一起,其實從根本上來講,文化在各民族、各種族、各個國家,他們都有屬於自己的特色,但是他們總體應該是相通的,都是人類精神生活的提升,表現的就是知識和智慧的出現與共用。

說到拍攝過程,胡軍不無感慨。為了拍好這部紀錄片,在有限經費條件下,仍然聘請美國電影工業裏著名導演,確定這位導演的原因就是因為這位導演有過拍攝中醫文化和中國針灸文化的經歷。

關於中美文化的差異,胡軍老師給我講到一個細節:拍攝片段展示的時候導演讓我做一個關於中國針灸的介紹,我想我在中國讀的碩士博士,對針灸歷史、文化可以說是非常瞭解,於是我就做了一個半小時的講話,誰知道導演說他因聽不明白全給刪了。很明顯,導演不適應我們對中國文化的表達方式,經過三次修改,最后我用最簡單的、系統的、邏輯的方式說明了我對針灸的看法和針灸科學在現代的應用才算勉強的過了關。我聽後不由啞然失笑,這段話讓不由我產生共鳴。記得我有一個在美國讀碩士的學生,也向我講述了類似的故事,他說:剛來美國讀書得時候,一次課上老師給出一道主題讓我們課後寫研究報告,我於是到圖書館查閱資料,古今中外什麼都查,洋洋灑灑寫了十幾張紙。交稿時自我感覺非常好,我想老師一定會贊賞我的文章,說不定還會在全班來個表揚什麼的,正美着呢,結果拿到手時我一看,老師只給我一個C。我非常納悶,為什麼?與此同時,我的一個朋友,一位土生土長的美國人,他得到得是A。他同意了我的要求把自己的文章拿來給我看。一看我有驚呆了,他的文章表達的方式簡單得如同“我在馬路邊撿到了一分錢,交給警察叔叔,警察叔叔說我是好孩子”。這樣的文章能拿A?帶着困惑我找到老師,老師給我講了兩個 字:“邏輯”,他說:你沒有按照事物發展的一般規律去寫,而是拼湊組合。原來如此,終於明白, 這裏寫文章就是那麼簡單,簡單到既沒有深度,也 沒有廣度。早期的中醫在美國從文化認知差異到臨牀作業的誤解,經常有被起訴的情況發生,大家還記得有個電影叫《刮痧》吧,說的就是當年的場景。又比如拔罐,當年華人的拔罐是受到美國主流社會的普遍質疑的,甚至發生將拔罐人告上法庭的事情,理由是他們認為拔罐會對身體產生傷害。好在現在的“拔罐”在美國已經很正常的一個治療行為,很多美國的運動員,比如說美國游泳飛人邁克爾.費爾普斯,他就非常認同拔罐治療。如今,越來越多的美國人知道拔罐是很好的治療方法,不但针灸醫生用,理療、正骨、推拿、按摩的也都在用。

當我問及美國中醫公會的情況時,胡軍老師告訴我:美國中醫公會就是為了推動中醫藥工業在美國的健康與醫療保健領域作用,一直以來為促進中醫 進入美國主流醫療領域做了很多具體工作。“加州 中醫學會”成立於1973年,學會堅持不懈地努力推動中醫合法化,後來又有更多的中醫社會團體相繼成立起來,如美國中醫公會、中醫藥中醫學會針灸咨詢委員會等,特別是加州中醫考試委員會的成立,旗標着在美國本土能夠培養針灸的碩士、博士 研究生。目前美國中醫公會的在冊註冊會員已經超過五百人。

說到中西醫文化比對,胡軍老師說:中醫和西醫在臨床面對病人的時候是不一樣的。中國傳統醫學注重對生命和身體的全面認識,說具體點就是中醫在治療上 與其說是一種療法,倒不如說是一種人文關懷更為貼切,這種認識是完整生命體和整體存在界的體現,也就是天人合一的觀點。中醫注重對生命的尊重和對人體生命過程的瞭解,遵從人與自然,人與宇宙的關係的和諧,將文化、起居、健康、地理、飲食等人在生命過程中的各種聯繫納入系統,強調系統整體的關聯性。這種思想延伸到治療過程中間,體現的是一種人文關懷的文化。而西方醫療行為排除了人文環境的存在,是一種點對點的治療行為互相之間的機械聯繫, 這也是現代醫學科學研究的方式,即實驗室通過研究排除所有不確定的因素,只保留單一的有作用因素。 有趣的是,我們幾乎看不到美國的醫療工業中起訴針灸醫師的,而對西醫的起訴每年都有好幾百例。

當我問到作為一個中醫人,如何將自己肩負的使命與 更多具有相同使命感的從業人員和中醫愛好者聚集起 來,共同促進中醫工業在美國的發展,胡軍老師自信地總結說:中醫在美國發展到現在,艱難的探索階段已經過去,我們中醫人已經學會了如何保護自己,學會抱團取暖。

在中醫文化的推廣方面,胡軍老師提到了去年的中國 端午節加州領事館座談會上她和領事交談的過程。胡老師說:當一個外國人開始對中國文化感興趣的時候,來咨詢一個針灸醫生,看看是否對他的疾病有所幫助,從這個開始,一直到他進入針灸診所直至整個 作業治療過程完成,都是在接受中華文化的燻陶,就是中華文化得以傳播的過程,中醫人的使命就是要讓 更多的人理解知曉我們中華文化是如何對待生命和健康的,從西方人接受中國中醫文化過程的具體感受中可以引發更多的理解和認同。

我悉心傾聽,心裏也在想這部紀錄片中關於中醫在美國的發展歷程和華人文化中的曾經有過的掙扎,我們知道這是一種民族文化之間的誤解,化解誤解的起點就是表達。這也正是這部電影的價值所在。中醫在美國的發展史只是華人在美國華人奮斗史的一個縮影, 我們期望越來越多的華人以此為鑒,並且能夠積極參政議政,讓更多人聽到華人的聲音,從而讓更多優秀的中國文化在美國得以廣泛傳播。

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